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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 1:46 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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kencierp wrote:
So you get the bridge height clearance made by a 1.5 degree +/- slope ( to what?) under the finger board extension by raising the center of the shoulder brace as illustrated and referenced in the gray area section of the article. It does seem like your neck block would have to be tipped inboard on the back side to keep the 180 degree relationship. ( a math thing) Your finger plane a straight line - right? Perhaps a line drawing for my feeble mind would help? I do like the idea of different approaches.


I think you have it in your head correctly. The neck block is tipped inboard as you say maintaining the 180 degree relationship (hence the straight finger plane) and the shoulders are glued to it that way.

The difference is that with the outside mold holding the block perpendicular, when the top is domed, that creates a 1 or 2 degree rise of the soundboard out of square to the shoulders, which then has to be transferred to the neck heel to match them up. My mating parts start off square and simply stay square.

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:33 pm 
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I have actually salvaged guitars, mostly classical's by removing the back, pushing the neck inboard, which tips the fingerboard plane away from the sound board. Then glued the back (nearly) in place. Getting the back plate loose from the classic foot is the toughest part, but doable. Of course binding channels need to be trimmed up on the back so the binding fit.

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:50 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Hope you don't mind Guitar Wisperer I couldn't resist..... :D Besides Jimi is one of my heroes so this is a compliment or at least intended as one.


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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:58 pm 
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theguitarwhisperer wrote:
kencierp wrote:
I guess a bit off topic here -- do you simply disregard the upper bout slope requirement?
http://kennethmichaelguitars.com/neckangle.html
The neck block and the rim need to machined/sanded


Actually I do ignore that as it does not pertain to my build method.

This actually ties in to what I was saying earlier about having a complete system thought out ahead of time because the excerpt you linked to pertains to really one specific style of building, and there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing. Your "requirement" is not REALLY a requirement, nor is the 89/91 degree relationship a requirement.

But first let's talk a little about stability. As a thought experiment, imagine the neck and end blocks glued to the ribs and released from the mold. Pretty flimsy and flexible, which is why it has has to be clamped and screwed down, and getting the block exactly perpendicular to the center line of the top requires so much concentration, although with repetition I'm sure it becomes second nature.

Gluing the block directly to the soundboard first takes that whole problem out of the equation, since it's glued into place exactly where needed and doesn't move. It actually serves as the anchor point when gluing down the sides, which are bent exactly to the right shape and clamped exactly in place on the soundboard as well.

As far as sanding the ribs/neck block, my neck block is glued down 90 degrees square to the neck, but since I arch my upper transverse brace, the shoulders are tipped and the neck block is orthogonal to the soundboard in a resulting 1.5 degree neck angle so that the strings are the correct height above the soundboard at the saddle. The ribs are just glued down to the sides after the kerfing (kerfed lining to the term freaks) is glued to the sides. I sand the ribs on a huge sanding board before gluing them to the soundboard. So MY neck angle relationship is 90/90, not 89/91, or 88/92, or whatever.

So the result is a neck block/neck assembly that is square (no angle transferring necessary), a 1.5 degree neck angle giving me the correct height above the bridge, and a fret plane that is straight from the nut to the fretboard end with no falloff.

So I do this without having to sand/machine the neck block and rims all at once to fit the soundboard. I can do this all day and get consistent results.

Here's some more pictures

The square neck:
Attachment:
flattened tongue.JPG


A sideview, if you look you can see the shoulders tipping back:
Attachment:
sideview.JPG


The height above the soundboard:
Attachment:
sideview2.JPG


And a view down the side of the neck so you can see that it is straight from the nut to the fretboard end with no falloff, this one might be hard to see:
Attachment:
DSCF0012.JPG

So Whisperer…is your top cylindrical then (arched laterally but not arched between neck and tail)? And to clarify, with your process, you achieve a 1.5 degree neck angle with the angle only on the heel, attached to a 90 degree neck block/upper bout arrangement.,….am I understanding that correctly? If so, it seems like it would be a much more repeatable and easier process than "figuring out" the neck angle for each build based on the angle formed by the neck block to soundboard which is what I've been doing. I build in a mould and sand 30' on top and 15' on the back but the neck angle is never exactly the same between my (massive # of) 4 builds. Very interesting process :)


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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:37 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hesh wrote:
Hope you don't mind Guitar Wisperer I couldn't resist..... :D Besides Jimi is one of my heroes so this is a compliment or at least intended as one.


That's hilarious!

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Beth Mayer wrote:
So Whisperer…is your top cylindrical then (arched laterally but not arched between neck and tail)? And to clarify, with your process, you achieve a 1.5 degree neck angle with the angle only on the heel, attached to a 90 degree neck block/upper bout arrangement.,….am I understanding that correctly? If so, it seems like it would be a much more repeatable and easier process than "figuring out" the neck angle for each build based on the angle formed by the neck block to soundboard which is what I've been doing. I build in a mould and sand 30' on top and 15' on the back but the neck angle is never exactly the same between my (massive # of) 4 builds. Very interesting process :)



Actually I dome the top at the location of the bridge by arching the X-braces and lower face braces. :)

My neck angle is created by arching the upper transverse brace and keeping the neck block orthoganal to the arch to the soundboard thus created, which tips the shoulders back.

As long as my neck block and neck are square (I use a Starrett square) and as long as I arch my upper transverse brace accurately, my neck angle and fit are the same every guitar with minimal fussing.

The more arched the upper transverse brace, the greater the angle, the less arched the lesser the angle.

Also, to maintain the SAME neck angle, the brace is arched slightly more for a 12 fret model than a 14 fret model due to the UTB being further away from the neck joint.

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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 11:25 pm 
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I used to have long hair, sometimes in a ponytail. Its amazing how much dust it holds. My hair is shorter now, thought I only get haircuts about 3 times per year.

I do still have a beard!

If I could go back and give myself some advice when I was first building, I tell myself to go pro building guitars and not canoes. That would have been back in 1991.

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 1:10 am 
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Whisperer, an interesting approach. A few questions-

What's your neck attachment system? Glued dovetail/glued extension-bolt-on with glued extension-or double tenon bolt-on?

I have noticed that to some degree if the extension is exactly co-planar to the proper neck angle unstrung it can become a rising extension with string tension and time. Do you address this?

How many instruments have you built with this approach and have you had a chance to see any back after several years in the real world go see how stable they are?

It was difficult for me to determine what the initial upper bout angle/ fretboard relationship should be until I had some longer term experience on how my guitars moved over the first few years.

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:46 am 
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Koa
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Perhaps the thread would have been better titled "Things I've learned about the way I have chosen to construct guitars." I agree with "whisperer" in that its far more important that the maker understands the goal (expected results) of a given process, set-up, technique than what method is/was used to get there.

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:31 am 
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I appreciate all these ideas--both the general perspectives and specific tips.

As a beginner, coming to guitar building in my 50's, I have learned that my usual approach to things--bursts of wild enthusiasm interspersed with long periods of sloth--does not work for me when building guitars. The single most useful suggestion I read on the OLF was to work on the guitar every day, even if only for 5 minutes. I've adopted a "never hurry, never rest" approach and it's helping.

I've also learned that, as much as I'd like to do perfect work, I have to accept a certain level of imperfection in order to make progress. If I had known this when I started, I would have built two guitars in the time I built my first guitar. Both would have been suboptimal but the second one would have been better, and I would have learned more in the same period of time.

Recently I have adopted a policy that I will spend any amount of time needed to correct structural problems, but not endlessly fuss with cosmetic problems. For example, I will re-do a rosette or binding twice, then think hard before doing it over a third time, and rarely do it a fourth time. What's most important to me at this point is determining what went wrong and how to get it right next time. It hurts my vanity to produce a guitar with obvious cosmetic flaws, but that's the way it has to be. It's a slight consolation that the flaws are only really obvious to me and other guitar builders and wanna-be's.

I want to express my thanks to all, especially John and the other experienced luthiers participating in this discussion, for all the information on guitar building (and hair styling).

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 1:21 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Terence Kennedy wrote:
Whisperer, an interesting approach. A few questions-

What's your neck attachment system? Glued dovetail/glued extension-bolt-on with glued extension-or double tenon bolt-on?


I use the cross-dowel bolt mortis and tenon with glued extension.

Terence Kennedy wrote:
I have noticed that to some degree if the extension is exactly co-planar to the proper neck angle unstrung it can become a rising extension with string tension and time. Do you address this?


In considering whether or not to address this in my build method I decided to leave the fret plane co-planer and straight. I put a pretty severe arch to my backs, which I believe helps resist the rotational forces at the neck joint. The only way I can think of to address what you are describing is to build some falloff into the guitar past the neck joint so that as the guitar ages the fret plane levels. However, this also means that though the fretboard may end up level, the action will still be high because if the neck is going to rotate enough to level the fret plane then it simultaneously raises the action. At that point you need a neck reset anyway, but prior to that, the action will be slightly artificially high past the neck joint due to the falloff. This is fine for folk strummers, but so far all the folks buying my guitars are nit-picky finger stylists who want super low action across the entire fretboard. So I build with a straight fret plane and plan on addressing problems as they arise.

Terence Kennedy wrote:
How many instruments have you built with this approach and have you had a chance to see any back after several years in the real world go see how stable they are?


After building a large number of guitars, eventually a maker pretty much only has to maintain the instruments they've made for clients without having to worry about maintaining a repair business outside of that. I haven't reached that point yet, LOL!
William Cumpiano has, and while I was in his shop I saw several older examples of instruments he made, one of them 20 years old. The necks were surprisingly straight. The top doming seemed slightly more noticeable than most factory guitars at that stage on the 20 year old example, but I've come to realize since then that lightly built guitars do that. The action and even the intonation were still good.
I recently saw an example of a 4 year old guitar of mine, it has held up just fine for that short amount of time, no neck rotation, very little doming. I only build 4 or 5 a year up to this point.

Terence Kennedy wrote:
It was difficult for me to determine what the initial upper bout angle/ fretboard relationship should be until I had some longer term experience on how my guitars moved over the first few years.


So how do guitars age then? do they move a lot in the first year then stabilize for a long period of time, age slowly for a long time then move a lot after they reach a certain fatigue level, or slowly but surely creep over time until one day you notice something's off?
From what I've seen of the build method I use, the neck joint seems fairly stable over time while the soundboard distorts slowly but surely over time, but not obscenely.

My philosophy on this issue is, I'm making Ferraris, not Toyotas. They run hotter and have higher performance ratings, but require a little more maintenance. They can't be abused without greater consequence and so must be taken care of better. However, I would rather they sound awesome for 30 years than mediocre for a hundred.

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:20 pm 
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Thanks Whisperer,
I think the type of neck attachment is an important part of the whole system. When I used a glued dovetail or a bolt-on with a glued extension there was not as much movement.

Since I converted to a double tenon Bourgeois type attachment 8 years ago there was definitely more movement that I had to address. This seemed to occur in the first 6-12 months and stabilize. Through a combination of modifying some aspects of the system and determining the correct upper bout rim angle to give the correct drop-off along with a slight initial overset things seem good at present.

It used to be a red flag if I saw a brand new guitar with a perfectly co planar extension and a 1/8" saddle height but with your system or the completely supported extension like Trevor uses that's probably just fine.

Seeing your guitars back after several years can certainly be a big factor in the evolution of the process.
It's always fascinating to see how we all agree on the desired end point but have found many different paths to get there that work just fine in our hands.

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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:10 pm 
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The way it was explained to me was that, by gluing the extension down, the rotational forces were converted to shear forces, and transferred to the top so that the whole top was resisting the rotational stress via the top being glued to the UTB (which also resisted downward collapse and therefore must be the beefiest brace), the UTB is coupled to the x-brace via the soundhole braces, and the whole assembly resists the soundboard being pushed towards the tail block by the fretboard extension. The upper transverse graft strengthens the soundboard along the sides of the fretboard extension.

This doesn't prevent the neck block itself from rotating due to the tenon pulling the bottom back, but having the shoulders tipped back, and the extra arch imparted to the back by the design I use holds the bottom of the neck block in place, so it is vitally important that the discontinuity be removed so that the neck block is attached firmly to the back plate. In order to rotate the neck, the back of the guitar must stretch to accomodate the rotation, or the UTB must collapse and/or the top slide forward.

Now at this point the question of glue cold creep comes into play. (Here we go!!)

I myself have not noticed any cold creep on any guitars used with modern glue on guitars that have been stored properly. If creep were indeed an issue, I think this is one area where it would quickly become evident, even more so than on bridge placement.

Braces would be sliding around all over the place due to the shear stresses, and neck blocks would be sipping and sliding off back plates due to the rotational forces left and right! I think neck blocks would be sliding around, you'd see the actual neck block pushing out the back of the guitar, dislodging binding, all kinds of detrimental effects.

We don't see that, instead the only examples of creep we are given are bridges sliding around pushing the finish. In all other cases (where the guitar has been stored properly) it's the WOOD that creeps and deforms over time.

None of Cumpiano's guitars seemed to be having any cold creep problems either, and the glue we used in his shop was Titebond 2.

So for me, since the design seemed to be a good one and produced well playing guitars that seemed to hold up over time while sounding superior, I've seen no need to deviate, other than to adapt the method to my personal shop space.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:41 am 
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"So for me, since the design seemed to be a good one and produced well playing guitars that seemed to hold up over time while sounding superior"

So I have to ask -- are you saying your guitars sound better than John Hall's or Wayne Henderson's and all others that build with a mold? Or better than the one's you constructed in a mold? Superior is an interesting wording for a subjective element.


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:06 am 
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maxin wrote:
"So for me, since the design seemed to be a good one and produced well playing guitars that seemed to hold up over time while sounding superior"

So I have to ask -- are you saying your guitars sound better than John Hall's or Wayne Henderson's and all others that build with a mold? Or better than the one's you constructed in a mold? Superior is an interesting wording for a subjective element.


Superior is a subjective word.

Superior to most Taylors, Martins, Gibsons, Takamines, and just about every brand of guitar I'd heard up to that point.

Cumpiano's guitars blow them all away.

I've never heard John Hall's or Wayne Henderson's instruments, and I doubt the molds have anything to do with it.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:51 am 
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Stradivari built on a mould. Seems legitimate to me.


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:55 am 
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Sure! Molds are very useful and a good way to build.

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:05 am 
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Not that it matters but superior is a definitive word

su·pe·ri·or [suh-peer-ee-er, soo-]

adjective

1. higher in station, rank, degree, importance, etc.: a superior officer.
2. above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence, etc.: superior math students.
3. of higher grade or quality: superior merchandise.
4. greater in quantity or amount: superior numbers.
5. showing a consciousness or feeling of being better than or above others: superior airs.

The way one arrives at that conclusion to apply that word, in the cases where we are depending on our senses is subjective --- but I get it, to your ear these guitars sound better than the others and its what you like to use as your sonic model. Certainly nothing wrong with that approach.


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:27 pm 
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maxin wrote:
Not that it matters but superior is a definitive word

su·pe·ri·or [suh-peer-ee-er, soo-]

adjective

1. higher in station, rank, degree, importance, etc.: a superior officer.
2. above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence, etc.: superior math students.
3. of higher grade or quality: superior merchandise.
4. greater in quantity or amount: superior numbers.
5. showing a consciousness or feeling of being better than or above others: superior airs.

The way one arrives at that conclusion to apply that word, in the cases where we are depending on our senses is subjective --- but I get it, to your ear these guitars sound better than the others and its what you like to use as your sonic model. Certainly nothing wrong with that approach.


Sure, Ill go with that.

I stand corrected!

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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:54 pm 
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I never have anything to add to these conversations but thank you all for them. These types of conversations make me think about what I think I know. I didnt understand the conversation about building to achieve the correct neck angle but again it makes me think.


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:43 am 
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There are so many things that go into a guitar. In a way it is a recipe. There is no such thing as a perfect guitar that will fit the needs and sound quality for everyone. Each builder adds or subtracts to make it their own. If there is one thing that comes out of this thread is that there is no one perfect way to do one thing , we all have our own techniques.
Since the sound perception is subjective to the individual , they in the end determine which is the guitar that best suits them. I make no qualms about that fact I like the traditional Martin designs. Others like Gibson and others something else. Find what you like and learn how to make your building process repeatable. We all hear and feel things differently and that doesn't make one right or one wrong.
Many great points came out in this and if you learned one thing , we all did our job.

Guitarwhisperer and I may differ in building techniques but we are most likely similar in paying attention to details and out construction techniques.

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Thanks for the words of wisdom, John. They're always appreciated. I do have a question about this statement, though:
Quote:
"I have stopped using a spreader on the neck block and now opt to screw through the mold and hold the neck block that way"

Your (very nice) molds are hinged at the top and bottom, with toggle clamps and locating dowels. How do you screw through them and into the neck block? Can you provide a photo?



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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 5:58 am 
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Here's a nice thread running at the KMG forum -- log constructing a cutaway in a toggle clamp mold, it has some pix showing how he fastened the neck block to the mold from the outside.
http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... 6&start=10

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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Thanks, Ken. That helps.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:44 pm 
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John, as always, I enjoy your points. Gonna have to think about how you actually screw the blocks to the mold. That is a very interesting idea.

Mike


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